BT: What were some of the challenges you faced when you first developed TCL and TK?

John: The challenge that led to the development of Tcl was building command languages for interactive applications. My graduate students and I had been working on a number of programs that needed command languages, and we had built a bunch of bad command languages. The goal for Tcl was to create an extensible core for a good command language, then reuse that core in a variety of applications. This goal led to much of Tcl's design, including its powerful features for extensibility, its embeddability, and its simple string-oriented syntax.

BT: Did you ever think Tcl/Tk would be this successfull ?

John: I had no idea at all. I built Tcl purely for my own personal use; I didn't think anyone else would care about it. It was a pleasant surprise when I gave a few talks on Tcl and people seemed interested, and a total shock when the user community ballooned into the hundreds of thousands over the next few years.

BT: Can you explain what SUN has meant to Tcl/TK development ?

John: Before I went to Sun I did all the Tcl development myself. At Sun I was able to build a team of about a dozen people, which gave us a much larger resource base. This allowed us to undertake projects like the Windows port, the Mac port, and the bytecode compiler. There's no way I could ever have done these projects all by myself.

BT: Why did you decide to start Scriptics ?

John: The Tcl developer community was continuing to increase by leaps and bounds, so it became clear to me that there were interesting business opportunities. At the same time, Sun really needed to focus its business and marketing resources around Java (we were well-supported as a research project in Sun Labs, but were unlikely to get the resources to build actual products). Thus the best way to bring Tcl-based products to market was to spin out into a startup.

BT: What prompted the name change to Ajuba Solutions. ?

John: The company had been changing its focus over the last year away from a pure Tcl tools play to a B2B integration server company with much more of a solutions emphasis (Tcl still played a major role, but behind the scenes). The name "Scriptics" suggested a low-level technology focus that was confusing to our potential customers. We intentionally chose "Ajuba" as a name without obvious meaning, so that we'd have room to reposition the company in the future without additional problems.

BT: Can you describe the process you went through during the sale of Ajuba solutions ?

John: It was a long meandering process involving discussions with several prospective acquirers and lots of internal soul-searching about whether the best thing for the company was to go forward on our own or partner with someone else. Eventually we decided that combining with Interwoven would the best thing for everyone.

BT: Why sell the company at this point ?

John: The good news about the market we were addressing is that it is a very large and exciting market. The bad news is that it is moving very quickly with several leaders already in place and consolidation happening around them. We felt it would be hard to compete on our our, so it would make more sense to join up with a larger company.

BT: Interwoven has made it clear that they will not invest in the development of Tcl and TclPro. What will happen to TclPro ?

John: We're hoping to be able to release TclPro in open-source form so the Tcl community can continue to use it and develop it.

BT: What about existing customers who need support ?

John: There are several individuals and groups associated with the Tcl community who have expressed interest in taking over for Ajuba to provide Tcl/TclPro support. I hope one or more of these groups will fill the gap.

BT: Were there ever talks about Interwoven supporting the developemnt of Tcl?

John: It became clear early in our discussions with Interwoven that they already have their hands full with their existing technologies, and that they would not be able to invest in Tcl.

BT: Does this mean you will not have as much time to put your efforts into Tcl ?

John: That's probably true, although as CEO and then CTO of Scriptics/Ajuba I had relatively little personal time to spend on Tcl development anyway. For the last couple of years my role has been mostly one of encouraging and supporting other people like Jeff Hobbs and Eric Melski, who are doing all the real work.

BT: What caused the inception of the Tcl Core Team ?

John: For several years the Tcl community has been asking us to get more people involved in the development of Tcl. With development centralized, first at Sun and then at Scriptics/Ajuba, people felt that improvements and bug fixes suggested by the community were taking too long to get into the software. Furthermore, not as many people were contributing to Tcl as we would have liked. Eventually it became clear that no one organization could commit enough resources by itself to develop Tcl at the rate we all wanted. A collection of us at Ajuba discussed this over the spring and eventually concluded that we needed to divest ownership of Tcl to a group of activists in the Tcl community. After some discussions with other leaders in the Tcl community such as Michael McLennan, the Tcl Core Team gradually emerged. At some point the possibility arose that Ajuba might be acquired, and that added a sense of urgency to get the Tcl Core Team up and running, but the decision to create the Tcl Core Team was made before acquisition discussions began, and it was the right decision regardless of whether Ajuba got acquired.

BT: What will be the responsibility of the Tcl Core Team ?

John: It has responsibility for overseeing the development of the Tcl and Tk core software, for making official Tcl and Tk releases, for managing the Tcl community Web site, and for encouraging many other people in the community to contribute in a variety of ways. I hope the Tcl Core Team will also help to create other teams within the Tcl community. These other teams might carry out functions such as managing popular extensions or creating a larger bundled release that incorporates many extensions as well as the Tcl/Tk core to produce a particularly easy-to-use package.

BT: Will the team be working on just improving Tcl or even the commercial products like TclPro ?

John: Right now the Tcl Core Team has not considered working on commercial products such as TclPro. If TclPro is released in open-source form, it would be great to see a group of people in the Tcl community maintain and enhance it. My personal preference would be for a separate team to manage TclPro rather than having the Tcl Core Team do it. In general, I think it would be better to have several smaller teams rather than one large team managing everything: the smaller teams should be able to operate much more efficiently. However, this is all embryonic right now; we'll try some stuff, see what works, and make changes to fix the things that don't work.

BT: Will Tcl/Tk will have a different site from dev.ajubasolutions.com in the future ?

John: Yes, that's the plan. However, what's most important is not where the site is hosted, but how it's branded. We want something that is a community site without emphasizing any particular commercial organization.

BT: Where do you see the future of Tcl/Tk ?

John: I've never been very good at predicting the future of Tcl/Tk. From the beginning it has evolved in ways that surprised me. For example, if you had asked me in 1992, I would have bet you that there would *never* be a Windows port. The future of Tcl/Tk will be determined by individuals who drive the software in particular directions; I'm looking forward to being surprised again, just as I have been surprised in the past.

BT: Would you like to share something with the Tcl/Tk community that needs to be stressed ?

John: I'd like to see many more people get involved building Tcl software that others can use. Hopefully the Tcl Core Team will facilitate this, but it can only work if lots of individuals step forward and make contributions. So pick an area where you can contribute, and just do it!

BT: Besides Tcl/Tk, have you developed anything else you're very proud of ?

John: There are a bunch of technical things that I'm proud of, such as the filesystem work that my graduate students and I did in an operating system we built at Berkeley called Sprite, and a spatial data structure I invented called corner stitching. There is also a less technical thing I'm very proud of, and this is the company and culture we built at Scriptics/Ajuba. We put together a really great team of top-notch people who worked together exceptionally well; it was both fun and very satisfying to be part of that organization.

BT: What's a typical day for John Ousterhout ?

John: Over the last couple of years I don't think there has been a "typical" day. As Founder and CEO, then CTO, I've been involved in a zillion different activities ranging from technical design reviews to Web site design to meetings with customers and investors. Thus every day is different. The one thing that is most typical is lots of meetings; I haven't had time to do much coding since starting Scriptics.

BT: In which OS do you do most of your develpment ?

John: (he blushes) Windows NT, I'm afraid. It's not a very fun system to use, but many of the applications that I need (such as PowerPoint for presentations) run there. Also, our customers insisted on NT support so we have forced ourselves to use it internally to make sure we take it seriously.

BT: What is your favorite Linux Distribution ?

John: I'm afraid I haven't used Linux enough lately to have a favorite.

BT: Are you married? Kids?

John: Yes: married with two children. One of the most difficult things over the last couple of years has been balancing the infinite time demands of a startup with the desire to be a decent parent.

BT: What are your hobbies ?

John: Hobbies? What hobbies? Between work and family activities there is not much time left for anything else.

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